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tmatz
USA
2 Posts |
 Posted - 05/24/2006 : 15:25:37
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I'm doing a paper for my English class and I have decided to research various aspects of the Gunpowder plot. Nemely, did/do the people of England (or at least the Roman Catholics) feel that Catesby and the boys were justified in their attempts?
Tyler Matz |
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Administrator
49 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 03:05:52
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A good question. I expect that people today, including the Church would say that there was no justification in what they did. Many Catholics at the time believed that there were still other ways to alleviate the problems and the persecution, however I believe the Jesuits understood that you need to break a few eggs to make an omelette.
We know that the key Jesuits were more than likely aware of the plot. Catesby revealed it under the seal of the confessional and told other plotters that he had already gained the tacit approval of the church as a result.
Can we justify any act of terrorism? The answer is probably no. Do the English people today feel that the IRA were justified in bombing London during the 70's and 80's? Certainly not. |
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tmatz
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 13:37:31
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Thank you for your insight. Please don't think I'm condoning terrorism, but I defintely agree with your "omelet" analogy. The penal laws against the Catholics of the time (or at least what I know of them) seemed so extremely harsh that I can't really blame them for trying to change how the country was being ran, but even your own website (and numerous other sources) states that Catesby, Gerard, Garnet, and all others involved, tryed as hard as he could to change things without violence. It sounds to me like James I probably should have stayed in Scotland for everyone's sake.
Tyler Matz |
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Administrator
49 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 14:36:44
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The Jesuits certainly did not go around preaching of violence and a common uprising to replace the government or the state sanctioned religion. Their "mission" was to help bring those who were wavering in their faith back to the Catholic church and to provide support for those who were staunch in their belief. Of course the Protestants would (and did) interpret this as sedition, which is why the laws were originally enacted to make such actions treasonous.
It was this extremism on behalf of the government that assisted in allowing such activities to fester. If they had allowed people the freedom of religion it is likely that none of these plots would have come about.
what you have to look at is the reason for such an action of control. It's not just good enough to say Henry VIII was to blame because he wanted a divorce so he could sire an heir, that's a very blinkered look at the root cause and effect. State sanctioned religion, and its enforcement was a tool to control the people of England who at that time faced military conflicts throughout Europe, and potentially on their own shore. This is what Cecil understood all too well which is why he managed to manipulate the situation to make England stronger.
And yes I believe that while the laws were reprehensible in what they did and how they were enacted, it made England stronger at the time. |
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George Walls
3 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2006 : 15:54:04
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I have thought about this very thing this week.
My initial instincts as a Roman Catholic were that they were right.That they were only trying to have their rights.They were English subjects living in a country where they were criminalised for a belief that earlier in history was the norm.
I then balanced this with the position of Father GARNET who seems to have advocated that they wait for God to take a hand.If it was God`s Will then this would be done despite the actions of Catesby etc.
Compare this with St. Peter on Jesus`s arrest when he was told by Jesus to put away his sword.It was God`s Will.
My current thoughts are that the situation cannot be taken out of context.Politics was also at work and Man`s Will.
The Plotters for example could not without compromising their principles acquire University Degrees etc and saw their Family Fortunes dwindle due to Recusancy Fines etc.They saw in James and his numerous children (successors) no light at the end of the tunnel.They had never lived in a Society where they could freely practice their Religion or do these things.
Men like CECIL may have thought themselves Loyal Patriots but there is a case that he and his like could benefit by persecuting the Recusants and in fact Recusancy Fines were a source of Revenue for the Crown.Also, when Estates were seized, someone else would benefit.
Catesby was found dead clutching a Religious article which probably showed that he was sincere, if this were not in fact placed there by his enemies or a story made up etc. to discredit Catholics and in particular the Jesuits.
Who can tell what is in Mens`(generic term)minds ?
Maybe each Conspirator had their own ideas and motives and torture was not necessarily the most reliable indicator.
"God helps those who help themselves"
Or
"The Evil that Men do lives on after them" |
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MaxMarie
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 17:29:13
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Hello Friends:
Newbie alert.
I first heard about Guy Fawkes from V for Vendetta. Since then I've been very interested in learning more. Happy to have found you all.
Yesterday I read a book about Edmund Campion written by Evelyn Waugh. I highly recommend it. I cried through most of the book. By the end of it, I could understand how some of my brethren might go to the extremes that Guy and the others did.
Fr. Campion was a Jesuit. He was at one point a favorite of the queen. Charming and beloved by all who knew him. Even before he became a priest. At that time, one could be hung, drawn and quartered for being a priest or harboring one. Father Campion met such an end.
Campion's "Brag" - written as he returned to England.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/CAMBRAG.HTM |
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Administrator
49 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 03:31:16
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The Waugh book is indeed excellent. Might I suggest the following as well:
Caraman, Philip - John Gerard. The Autobiography of an Elizabethan, Longmans, Green and Co, London 1951
John Gerard was an amazing man, one of only a few to escape from the Tower of London. His journey through life will certainly provide you with a wonderful first hand insight into the period and the life a Jesuit priest led. |
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Justification of Catesby and the plotters
